The Ongoing Cedar Shake Roofing Dispute

Shake vs. Composition Roofing

This page contains a number of letters and responses regarding cedar shakes and shingles. While I continue to advocate against the use of cedar as a roofing material, I also welcome other ideas and points of view. See Questions and Answers to Cedar Shake Roofing below. 
 

Q - We're building a traditional southern style home, and are trying to decide what type of roofing material to use.

The builder suggests cedar shake, but I'm not totally convinced. I've considered Certainteed's GrandManor because of it's warranty and has an exceptional look.

Do you have any thoughts on this product vs. cedar? How about material and installation cost comparisons?
Steve

A - I have been telling people not to use cedar shakes for quite a while. Every year I find more information which tells me the shakes are a poor roofing product. My findings:

(1) Shakes are a short lived material. Most of the shakes are made out of mixed grain wood which does not have the stability or rot resistance of those fine old vertical grained shakes which were cut from the hart-wood of giant old growth trees.

(2) Current codes and standards require us to install shakes on top of tar paper. (Old shakes worked fine without tar paper, and the more common steeper roofs, new shakes would leak if we didn't underline them).

This practice reducing the rate at which the shakes dry out, and adds to the rotting process.

(3) Shakes require more maintenance and repair than any other type of roof.

(4) Untreated shakes are not fireproof.

(5) Most shakes are not covered by a warranty, and some shake warranties are worthless.

(6) WESTERN RED CEDAR IS NOT BEING REPLANTED IN MOST OF THE FORESTS. GOOD SHAKES COME FROM TREES WHICH ARE HUNDREDS OF YEARS OLD. SHAKE ROOFS LAST FOR 8-25 YEARS.

Subtle, I am not.
George

More on: Shake vs. Composition Roofing

Q - I'm still curious about anything you can tell me regarding the alternative I'm considering. Specifically, Certainteed Grand Manor shangle.

One builder priced them at about double wood shakes. Seems a little fishy to me, but what do I know?

I appreciate your advice.
Steve

A - I talked to Jerry at Stoneway Roofing Supply (one the "real" experts - without whom I would know nothing!). He confirms the information from your roofer about the relative pricing of shake vs. Grand Manor Shangle.

Keep in mind that there are many other composition roofing products on the market, you might want to pay a visit to a good roofing product showrooms, Stoneway has 3 very nice ones in the Puget Sound area (and they are one of the sponsors of this site!).
George

*For more information, see the topic page on Cedar Roofs .

More on: The Cedar Shake Roofing Dispute

For a number of years, I have been giving out the type of advice contained in the preceding Q&A. With the exception of two vitriolic and poorly written responses, I have not heard of any defense on behalf of cedar shake roofing. I am now in receipt of a thoughtful eMail from Brooke Meeker/Anbrook Industries Ltd. Her entire eMail follows. The Numbers in brackets are mine and relate to my comments at the end of the letter:

I recently came upon your advice given to the consumer who was trying to decide whether to roof with cedar shakes or an alternative material, and thought I'd pass along some more accurate information to you, as it was apparent that you are somewhat misinformed about cedar shakes and shingles.

Cedar shakes are a highly efficient and long-withstanding roofing material. They are a renewable resource and are environmentally friendly, being biodegradable. (Comp. materials have contributed to the demise of our environment by emitting harmful gas, oil, carbon dioxide,carbon monoxide and hydrocarbons. Concrete production is estimated to emit almost 3 times more emissions and produce 5 times more solid waste than the production of lumber) In rigorous and ongoing testing done by Inchcape Testing Services, cedar shakes produced by mills belonging to the Cedar Shake & Shingle Bureau have withstood 130 mph hurricane force winds, pounding hail storms and are highly resilient in earthquakes.

(1) The Cedar Shake & Shingle Bureau has very strict standards which have been adopted by the Uniform Building Code and the International Code of Building Officials. These standards are maintained by continuous grading and monitoring by a third party. Cedar Shake & Shingle Bureau rules allow a maximum of 20% flat grain per bundle, the other 80% must be vertical grain. Additionally, grading procedures allow 1/8" of sapwood (on one edge only) and the rest must be heart wood.

(2) Your reference to "giant old growth trees" is somewhat misleading to the consumer, as the phrase "old growth" is one of confused conflict. There is no universally accepted definition of an old growth forest. As a popular term, old growth is often used to describe forests containing trees that are simply big and old, usually over 200 years. As a scientific term, it refers to a forest containing trees that have reached the age of maturity for the particular species. On the West Coast, where the rain forests are composed almost entirely of red cedar and western hemlock, most of it is so full of rot that it is not worth cutting for lumber. It is now believed that these forests are in decline because they're too old. Some of these forests have enough sound cedar to make them worth logging, and much to the surprise of foresters, the new forest that grows back after clear cutting these sites if often much healthier than the original. Quoting Dr. Patrick Moore, world renowned forest ecologist and founding Greenpeace member, from his book, "Pacific Spirit, the Forest Reborn", referring to the cutting of these forests, he states " It appears that these forests are not only capable of recovering from destruction but that major disturbance is actually good for them." Additionally, his book states, "Where they have been allowed to grow back, our new forests are very similar to the original forests partly due to the lack of intervention after logging.

(3)In most areas the second-growth has been given the chance to grow back exactly as it would after any major disturbance. In areas where trees have been planted they are nearly always the same species that were on the site originally." Production of cedar shakes and shingles is considered a "value added" industry, because of its' utilization of salvage and low grade cedar wood that is unusable by lumber manufacturers, this raw material would go to waste if not for shake and shingle mills. It is a prime example of total resource utilization.

(4) Building codes require installation of cedar shakes in conjunction with roofing felt, and if proper ventilation is provided under the roof, and it has been installed by an approved roofing installer, there should be no problems with rot, buckling, or poor insulation. In fact, cedar shakes provide a very high insulation value. Cedar forms a breathing membrane allowing moisture and air to pass evenly from inside to outside thus preventing condensation. Because of the method of fixing, they form an integral part of the roof structure and so give added strength. Tiles and slates are dead weight on a roof, and concrete tiles are ten times heavier. Additionally, cedar has the lowest thermal conductivity of all roofing materials.( They are ten times better than clay or concrete tiles.)

Every type of roof requires maintenance, and with very little effort, a homeowner can take proper care of their cedar roof and make it last for many years. Some basic maintenance tips include running downspouts to the ground, making sure ventilation is not blocked, keeping the downspouts clear of debris, and trimming overhanging branches to help eliminate debris from falling on it. I wouldn't exactly call that "high maintenance", would you? Additionally, having your cedar shakes CCA treated, which is an antifungal treatment, greatly increases the life span of your roof and cedar is naturally repellant to fungus and bug infestation.

Untreated shakes are certainly not fireproof, but how much of the rest of your house is? One thing to keep in mind is that if your house is on fire, an untreated roof will burn through, whereas a tile or cement roof will act as an oven, keeping the heat inside and eventually the roof will simply collapse, because of the aforementioned "dead weight".

All products manufactured under the Cedar Shake & Shingle Bureau come with either a 20 or a 25 year warranty, which is fully backed by the Bureau. Additionally, CCA treated and fire treated products have warranties which are backed by the treatment companies. An example is Western Wood Preservers, in Aldergrove, B.C. who provide either a 30 year transferable or 50 year non-transferable warranty for CCA treated shakes. It is not a "bogus" warranty, and neither is the Cedar Bureau warranty. A consumer can feel completely secure in purchasing a cedar shake roof from a company under the Cedar Shake & Shingle Bureau.

Cedar Shakes are still the best roofing products money can buy when you consider all factors. And, when you consider the fact that most composite products these days imitate the appearance of cedar shakes, because of their aesthetically pleasing value, why would you buy anything but the real thing?

Hope this information is helpful to you, and any future confused consumers who may write you for advice on cedar shakes.

Sincerely,

S. Brooke Meeker

ANBROOK INDUSTRIES LTD.

Brooke Meeker
Sales/Freight Coordinator
Anbrook Industries Ltd.

Dear Brooke,

Thank you for you letter. I have not changed my mind about the use of cedar as a roofing material, but appreciate the time you took to respond to my comments. Here are a few comments in response:

(1) In my inspections I rarely find a 15+ year old cedar roof in a functional condition. I often find cedar shake roofs which are 8 years old and failing. In fact, I often find early roof failure in the "better quality", more expensive developments which have a cedar roofing as part of the covenants. And, in must such cases, many homeowners are choosing alternative roofing materials such as the many "cedar shake look-a-like products".

By the way, I often find 25-35 year old "builder basic" 15 year rated composition roofs which are still functional.

(2) I suspect that we could spend a lot of time talking about grading standards, and I invite your and other's further comments about this subject - to be reprinted without modification! However, let me just comment about the "rules (which) allow a maximum of 20% flat grain per bundle".

These flat and mixed grain shakes tend to curl and split. As such, prudent roofing practices would dictate that they should be discarded by the roofer and not applied to the roof. It is for this very reason that I suggest: "Specify 'Number One - Blue label' product and have the roofer select out the 25% or so of the shakes which don't conform to #1 grade. Yes, it's true up to 25% of the shakes and shingles in a bundle may be 'off grade'" see the section entitled But I want a Cedar Roof!.

I understand that some of the mills are now selling a "select" product i.e. a product with less or no off grade material. While I am sure that such a product is more expensive, I would recommend anyone who still wants a cedar shake roof to spend the extra money for such a material.

(3) Reforestation is not a specialty of mine, however, it is my understanding that most reforestation involves "monocultures" of fir and hemlock. It is also my understanding that there is very little cedar grown in nurseries and/or planted in any of the reforestation efforts. For example, the Olympic Peninsula of Washington State was once a source of many cedar products. Today, most of that cedar is gone, and I have not seen or heard of any large scale efforts to re-plant cedar or mixed forests. Most of our cedar today comes from mills in Canada. We can argue about what I mean by "giant old growth" forests, but it is my understanding that most of the Canadian products comes from 'natural forests' (my term). Forests which reseeded themselves after fire etc. and took much longer to re-grow than the planned monoculture reforestation.

(4) "Total resource utilization" is a very important basic goal for any environmental action("Reduce, reuse, recycle"). I would never suggest that we should waste cedar, but I would hope that we use the cedar in manner which allows for decades if not centuries of use. For example: we could use the cedar to manufacture sidewall shakes and shingles.

There are thousands of homes with 80+ year old cedar shingle siding in many parts of the US and Canada. Such siding needs to be properly installed and stained or (preferably) painted, but does not seem to have functional age limit. At a time when many of the other siding products are found wanting (e.g. wood composite, EIFS etc.), why not promote the use of cedar sidewall shingles and shakes as a tested and proven product.
George

George,

Thank you for your interest in my letter, and although I may not have changed your mind, perhaps it will give some homeowners a better insight into cedar.

Just one point I'd like to clarify; when you mention #1 Blue Label products having up to 25% offgrade product, this is incorrect. The products contained in a bundle of #1 product are permitted to have the 20% mixed grain in them; they are an ongrade product, as long as they are within that 20% guideline. So, it is completely false to say that a bundle of #1's can contain up to 25% offgrade material. If it has a #1 Certisplit or Certigrade label, it means that the entire bundle is ongrade. The 20% is an allowable percentage under the #1 labeling and grading rules.

Sincerely,
Brooke Meeker
Anbrook Industries Ltd.

Brooke, thank you for taking the time to write. I may not agree with your point of view but respect your opinions.

George

For more information, see the topic page on Cedar Roofs .